The PVV party (De partij van de vrijheid "the party for freedom" a Dutch populist party) has asked the minister for hard numbers concerning what "immigrants" cost the state. The minister answered he would not give the information. Response from the PVV was twofold: use an ancient article of law to drag the minister to court (chances of that succeeding are slim), and to start a website where people could comment.
The quote below is from that site.
Now, I'm sorry for the poster to single her out, and i'll leave her name out of the equation. I'll not link to her post here[1] nor will i post the original content in Dutch .This is not an attack on the poster. Her post just has the distinguishing characteristic that it is so eloquent of how people feel and the arguments they use: so i'll use it as an example, also because it concerns the neighbourhood i work in. The post was written in the aforementioned context. The translation is mine and mine alone, i've tried to be as true to the original text as possible. This is meant to give a specific example what shape the 'comments' i referred to two posts prior take: since i'm putting this to an international community who don't speak Dutch and might be unaware of the situation here.

"As a resident of [...] i know exactly what our 'guest-unemployed' do. Nothing at all! Groups of smelly headscarves/dresses occupied by men stand on unpractical corners babbling unintelligably. Because even after 3 to 4 decennia in The Netherlands their vocabulary doesn't extend past: But me a right to state-support! Also (governement financed red.) child support for child in morocco! My back is ouch, can't work!
[...]
New policy is urgently required. No more new immigrants! We have more than enough of them already! Let's finish up the old ones first. (Lost in translation. Definately *not* 'finish off', red.) In the sense that they all have to e able to speak Dutch within three months and have a paid job. No right to WAO, WW etc (state benefits, red.) Only after you've helped pay for them for a minimum of 10 years. If you don't speak Dutch and you're here longer than 6 months, a one way ticket to where you came from. If you pretend you come here for work, you work here, if there's no work for you, one way ticket back! Criminal youth of foreign (lost in translation. Literally "other than Dutch". red.) descent? One way ticket home, together with the so called custodians (Literally: raisers. red.)
And if there's cost anyway, build a prison where they're punished the same way as in their own country. Betcha they don't feel the inclination anymore? (To engage in crimnal activity. red.)"

There we have it. What's being discounted in all the posts i read is the question 'why were they granted asylum here'. People seem to be convinced these are ecnomical refugees, but there's no evidence to support that. Other than this example seems to suggest, the procedure for getting a visa here is not *that* easy. A case could be made that not every foreigner *needs* one here to be able to work and/or claim benefits. The term "guest-unemployed" is probably a pun on Gastarbeiter. People 'imported' by the state to work here.
Please note how criminal youth of foreign *descent* (these are people with the Dutch nationality, mind) should be sent back to their (or rather their forefathers) land of origin.
And building a prison like the poster is suggesting will (if i understand her correctly) get us in trouble for violating human rights.
Also, the poster seems to believe that it is the foreign citizens who are *mainly* claiming benefits here. I can ofcourse come up with a lot of anecdotes about people who (ab)use the social services-system. The fact that it's been revised drastically and at great cost *already* is not mentioned, but has happened. Having a sense of entitlement bigger than your house, and refusing to better yourself is not a monopoly of foreign residents. Neither is using the social services system, to be able to sit out your days without working. There is a great deal of debate about this issue. But i'll say here that yes, there are ways you can 'beat the system' and get as much as you can out of government: especially when there are children involved. (On the site there are also a couple of posters who cite that women get child-benefits here, while hubby does well for himself in Morocco.) That, however, would require a lot of knowledge of rules and regulations here, as well as a command of the language: but i digress.
As should be obvious there are a great deal of conclusions being drawn, without any numbers/statistics/proof other than anecdotal. A great deal of subjective jugement and a great deal of anger.

Now, i myself have made the (admittedly rather dark) joke that if i were to 'accidentally' get pregnant, get fired and have Roomie move out: i'd probably make double my current salary on benefits. To my mind those are the sacrifices you make if you adhere to the philosophy that a civilisation needs to ensure a minimum standard of living (which seems to be the current doctrine) and admittedly the system might need tighter supervision. All of these might be true, but don't relate in any way directly to immigrants.
If we're talking (and we are) about cutting costs and people are suggesting more costs should be cut on 'immigration' then who do we define as an immigrant? And if we're talking about criminal statistics on a specific part of the population (young moroccans seem to be a popular subject of late) what do we compare it to? To the statistics of juvenile delinquency as a whole? Or to the statistics of the non-foreign youth? Or to the statistics of a couple of years ago? (Some posters on the PVV website seem to be suggesting the latter).
Or are we cutting costs on *social benefits for immigrants*? It could be argued that according to a broadly held opinion, trying to secure a job is mandatory to be able to get benefits. It could be argued that  refusal to learn the language would be detrimental to that, and so your benefits could be cut if you refuse. (The same way if you're offered a job and you decline without good reason).  But this does not seem to be what this poster is saying.
The *fact* is worth noting, that the store owners in that neighborhood are very often of foreign origin. They work. The snackbars, the baker, the butcher, the grocer: all of them originally from foreign origin. They're not getting any benefits: they're running a (sometimes halal) snackbar/eating house/butcher.

What  is suggestive is that apparently people feel costs should be cut on all sides of the *issue* of immigation. So what should should be included under the header "costs of immigration"? (The question on the site as well) Benefits, but also (by another poster) translators, for instance. Delinquency is a hot topic, but it eludes me what the subject has to do with "we want to know the costs of immigration for the state". Possibly because detention is expensive? But I have not yet seen that point mentioned.

So this is what comments can look like. Now to the issue of why i post this here. Why not get into the debate at the site? Because this post is mean to illustrate, generally, how discontent in the public debate seems to find its voice in these media: in these comments sections. These are rants from people who firmly believe they aren't given a voice in government. That their sentiments are ignored, that no one will stand up for *them* and how *they* feel about issues. Well maybe the PVV, if they get enough votes.
The poster i just cited says she's from the neighbourhood i work in (and used to live in) . I feel i should be able to see what she is seeing. And yes, garb is a little more traditional. Yes, people speak their native tongue (which however, does not necissarily imply they don't also speak Dutch) and yes, delinquency will always be a problem apart from which age-  or ethnic group(s) the deliquents might come from. (There have been a couple of armed robberies relatively recently. Also we had problems with street-robberies, drugs and so on which seem to have little or no reation to ethnicity. That there's a lot of Juvenile delinquency, i find easy to believe, even though i haven't really been confronted with any in my eight years in the neighbourhood. One could also argue there are reasons why the statistics are so high among specific cultural or age groups. but that's too much to get into here.)

These are sentiments from the gut. They're being spoken and felt and believed by many (if the polls of the PVV are any indication.)  Many have had bad experiences with juvenile delinquency, most have issues with Islam, and nearly all of them feels the 'leftist' government had rather coddle these people than to take any real measures.
How is it i can't see what they see? What *i* see is projection. Issues are projected on people who are perceived to be different rather than looked at independently, what else is new, right? This is talked about all over the 'net and in newspapers and blogs. But i also wonder why they can't see what i see. That it's not that cut and dry. And that people should think with their head, not their gut. But their gut, apparently, is exactly what's been ignored for too long: and apparently people feel it's time to spill it. To this international blogring i'll just say: look at the State our guts are in...

Fins out

[1] Suffice to say the original post was posted publicly on the PVV's site http://www.watkostdemassaimmigratie.nl/

<Rant alert.. (obviously)>
It's shocking to me how much right-wing thinkers are taking over the public debate. It's apparent that they feel like they haven't got a voice, that the printing press are "leftist" and so don't report the "obvious". But sometimes the opposite is the case. More and more uninformed opinions of people who feel that "immigration" is a problem, with no real arguments to bring into the discussion are monopolising the comments section of papers, of weblogs and in bars.
I get scoffed at for being 'politically correct' and adding to the problem. Being an 'idealist' (which is apparently a dirty word)  instead of "facing" the "obvious".
Being thoughtful and politically correct is now "wrongheaded" and "why shouldn't i call them 'niggers', they're from Nigeria, right?" Hm. That would be Nigerians i should think.

And the ever echoing and re-echoing of the opinion that we have an "Islamic incursion". Why? "Well shouldn't it be obvious? Don't you have, like, eyes in yer head?" Yes. I have eyes. And yes. We have a large islamic population. The problem?
Well, i can't really get a straightforward answer to that. My observation is that the debate is getting more and more polarised. Muslims feel entitled to respect (and sometimes unquestioning respect) and the right-wingers feel they're being marginalised (and want to unquestioningly be heard).

I would like the internet population to open the eyes in their head. This is called the public debate and we all want a piece of the cake. But, and this is a big but, you will still have to think with your *head* not your anger.
Educate yourselves people. This is the internet age. It's easy. Read different papers. Look things up. Ask questions.

An anecdote from yesterday.
One moroccan kid, asking me *loads* of questions about being a franchiser and how it works, and telling me he wanted his own shop when he grew up...
Yeah. Sure. It's "those moroccan kids". They're all criminals. Uh-huh.
It doesn't occur to people they might dream of having their own shop one day? And that *they* might feel threatened by al the invective? And that they might fear for their children's dreams and their communities freedom to practice their faith?
People feel they should 'adapt'. Which leans closer and closer to "be silent and don't stand out. We don't want your opinions. Because you're immigrants. We don't want to be confronted with your headscarves nor with your criminal kids." They have a voice in the public debate, as they should have. This country, people, pretends to be a democracy. Everyone is entitled to their voice.
The right wing feels their freedom to express themselves is being limited. I feel they're thinking with their sense of entitlement, instea of with their brain. It's called the public *debate*. Not the public 'mememememeeee'.

People: 'just giving your opinion' does *not* excuse being uninformed. That's lazyness. You can read, so go read. *Form* an opinion instead of parrotting the most radical one. This goes for *all* sides of the debate. I don't care what your opinion is: but if you don't have arguments, you're adding to the problem.
We live in a democratic society in which the public debate is *vital* to even getting close to being a real democracy. Don't pass the buck solely to government. Take your responsibilities seriously, citizens on both sides of the debate. Educate yourself, and let's hear it. This is the internet age, anyone can contribute.
Don't just whinge about how you're entitled to this or that. Contribute. Speak up. Use real arguments. And the most vitally important part: learn, really *learn* how to....
.... listen.

Fins back to her books for now

Party on.

</rant>

Okay. Rant alert.
After being advised to call the desk at uni back when i called at 12:30, i tried to contact the lady about the job. She wasn't picking up (lunchbreak?). I try the desk at uni again at about 13:00. They close at 14:00. At 14:10 still on hold. But i still want to talk to the lady about the job. So. I hang up the phone. Call the lady about the job. Still not picking up her phone. In the meantime i get a text from my co-worker if i could come in early. I try to call him, he doesn't answer his phone. I want to call the store, but we *don't have the telephone number on our website*! So i call his mobile again. No, i don't have to come in early: it was busy before but now it's quiet again.
Tomorrow is friday: which means i can probably not reach *anyone*.
Besides, bar *one* the issues from last post are still current.

So sing it with me guys!
"IIIII have confidence that Spring will come again!
You'll have to agree i have cooooonfiiiideeeence in
Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

Fins out
Party on.

No, not that kind. I wish. This is a rant at sister Insomnia.
The number of times i've been told "Just go to bed, close your eyes, you'll be asleep before you know it". Alternated by talk about "going-to-bed-routines" and one very brief stint with some sleeping-pills, I feel somehow compelled to write this here. Proving to you that it's not my willfull stubbornness, nor refusal, nor some sort of self-destructive tendency that makes sleep so difficult.
Sure I *dislike* hours being snatched fom my life that i'll never get back. But i realise as well as any whatever-label-you-put-on-me that sleep is important to lead a Productive and Healthy life.

I put to you the case of Sister Insomnias vindictive acts of last night. The weekend was exhausting. My lover was peacefully asleep. I read a little (see? There's your going-to-bed-routine!) turned off the light at 12:00 (an hour before my scheduled sesame-street-is-over bedtime) and "just closed my eyes" to be carried off gently on the waves of sleep in the vague hopes it would be filled with dreams about sailing around the world.

After some tossing and turning and willful boring-thinking, sleep came to me. (Not that i noticed, i was after all asleep.) At five in the morning, with a bzzt bzzt and a beep beep I found out that Lover was on pager-duty and that servers do not sleep, and that one had a Neurotic Episode and deemed it necissary to send a text about it, probably detailing its HDD was 70% full. *
Oh well. I'll just turn over, and wrap myself back in my dream (which was not about sailing around the world) and catch a few hours.
I rubbed my feet together. I turned over. I turned over again. I opened my eyes. hmpf. Okay, long *long* experience had taught me that if i get out of bed now, or turn on the lights and read: I can forget about sleep.
So i concentrated on my breathing. Played a movie in my mind. Tried to remember as many details about the book i was reading as i could. Rubbed my feet together. And turned.
I told myself i had *hours* yet, right? It was like 5:30 in the morning. I could sleep in if i wanted. It would all be *fine*...

...when the grey claws of dawn started reaching through the windows....
Okay, i was for it. I got up and went to the kitchen. Ofcourse this was not my own house, so no comforting tall glasses of juice. Just some mingeing cups of tap-water. (I shouldn't bitch, really. It's good tap water. I like drinking water. I'm lucky to be able to drink water out of the tap at all. Let's just say my mood wasn't conducive to Not Whining.)
Back to bed.
At some point i must have fallen asleep. I know this because i woke myself saying "Ahem ahem. Pardon. yes, this is Ichixa speaking...."
And as that woke me: i stopped talking. (I *have* to ask my Lover and possibly start a poll under ex-boyfriends whether i often talk in my sleep. Certainly not loud enough to wake myself.)
It was six thirty in the morning, and the tendrils of dawn had grown bright and were touching my closed eyelids, slowly drawing out the patterns of a nasty headache.
I hid under the blankets, but soon felt stuffy. I turned my head away from the light to a Familiar Smell**. Armpit. Hm.
Up i got and to the window, where I tried to use the tattered bit of cloth that passes for a curtain to block out the light. To no avail.

After an hour of tossing i must have fallen asleep again. Because when i woke i had overslept, my eyes were aching, so was my head. My mouth felt like it was stuffed with overused dustcloths, and a sip of tap-water told me dust-cloths start tasting worse when you wet them.
Lover came in with one cup of coffee, apologetically explaining he ran out of coffee, and had brought the juice with him to work the day before.
He was off to his Blasted Neurotic Server Of Doom, and i went light-headed and strangely resembling Yodas little sister to the grocery store.
See, dear people? These are Acts of the Sleeping God. (S)He wants me OUT of the realm of the sleeping.

*It's immaterial whether it's the Attack of the Neurotic Server, the kids screeching in the courtyard, garbage collectors, traffic... Something always wakes me.

**Sorry my darling. In my defence, now that i have juice and coffee and have gotten rid of the Snark, you have to admit. It *was* funny.

...of mint.

Also i am a murderer.
I'd saved some plastic pot for the chervil that has needed dealing with for too long now. So today i took my spoon, and bamboo sticks and set out bravely to repot some of the baby chervil. "Verspenen" they call it in Dutch.
After the first deep breath the spoon went into the soil with the painful "crunch" of little roots breaking. But grimly i went on. Three pots i filled with the poor chervil seedlings. When i went back to my balcony to find a place for them, to my perturbation the strawberries needed replanting.
Shoot. I did *not* count on that. I used everything including the plastic containers of the cherry toms from the super i bought, to save as many as i could. *
The tiny plants fell apart in my hands, roots exposed... oh man. That's what i get from sowing so many.
*snif*
I hope a couple survive my ministrations.
A snail took residence in my maggi-plant and proceeded to kill it. My sage looks as if it has mold on the leaves...  This is *not* boding well for my balcony-project.
The dill on the other hand is starting to resemble a jungle.

P.S. Bureaocracy is a *beyotch*. *nodnod*

*I had so many i decided to experiment. Two containers under glass, one in the windowsill, and three out in the open.